Former Post Office managing director Alan Cook says he assumed the police and DPP were involved in prosecutions
Alan Cook said he had not previously encountered an organisation that could initiate prosecutions itself, and he describes it as “one of my regrets” that he didn’t “pick up on that earlier”.
He told the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry:
I had assumed that the police/DPP had been involved. I shouldn’t have presumed, but I did presume, sadly. And then “it had gone to court” was the expression they used. I had not encountered the notion of an organisation that could make that decision on its own. And I suppose I had too much assumed knowledge. And when you see the words that were written, I can see why that view still perpetuated in my mind, because it didn’t overtly say “We have taken the decision to prosecute.”
Chair Wyn Williams interjects, and says:
As I understand it, it follows from what you’re saying that when you became the managing director, no one within the company Post Office Ltd thought it necessary to tell you “And by the way, we prosecute people, in the sense that we don’t just investigate them, but we initiate and conduct the prosecution.”
Alan Cook says that is correct.
He is shown some minutes about court cases from a meeting he did not attend but would most likely have read at the time. The phrasing still did not, he says, strike him as meaning that Post Office Ltd was itself carrying out the prosecutions.
“I am not blaming others,” he said “It’s my misunderstanding, but I had just not encountered that type of situation.”
Key events
Phillip Inman
The Bank of England’s recent record of forecasting inflation and the path of interest rates was undermined by out-of-date methods and a failure to communicate clearly with the public, according to a bruising independent assessment.
The report by the former US Federal Reserve boss Ben Bernanke said the Bank spent much of its time attempting to justify its poor judgment rather than admit its failures and change course.
Accusing the Bank of appearing to “at times suffer from excessive incrementalism”, he said policymakers had raised rates too slowly over the past two years when it was clear inflation was already rising beyond normal levels.
Bernanke said the Bank relied on old software to process information and failed to consult staff who were often overworked and inexperienced.
Setting out 12 recommendations, Bernanke said the forecasting errors by the Bank “were hardly unique” among central banks in the developed world.
Read more of Phillip Inman’s report here: Bank of England forecasts undermined by out-of-date-methods, report finds
I’m confident Rayner has not broken the rules – Starmer
The police investigation into Angela Rayner’s council house sale will allow a “line to be drawn” on the issue, Sir Keir Starmer said.
The Labour leader said: “We welcome this investigation because it will allow a line to be drawn in relation to this matter.
“I am fully confident that Angela Rayner has not broken the rules. She will cooperate with the investigation as you would expect and it is really a matter for the police.”
The Post Office Horizon IT inquiry is breaking for lunch. And so will I. Jamie Grierson will be with for the next hour or so, and then this afternoon there will be more testimony from Adam Crozier.
There has been a lengthy discussion about corporate structure and reporting lines at the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry, and then Adam Crozier has been asked about the fact that the Post Office was in financial difficulty.
Jason Beer KC points out that “It was clear that the company was insolvent and that in the absence of support from his parent company or ultimate shareholder, that’s the government it would be unable to meet its debts as they failed you for the foreseeable future.”
Crozier said the solvency issue of the Post Office threatened the solvency of the whole group.
He has been asked a bit about how issues with IT in the Post Office would be raised at Royal Mail board level.
In his witness statement Crozier has said:
I must stress that my responses are not in any way intended to detract from the fact that it’s clear to me now that this structure did not help facilitate vital information regarding Horizon and the conduct of criminal proceedings reaching me or the board of Royal Mail as it should have done.
Asked to expand upon this, Crozier said the structure made sense to him at the time because the two companies had such different objectives, but he says now:
I think the issue looking back that I could see that was unhelpful was actually one in the way which impacted on the two attitudes or cultures of the two companies.
In Royal Mail, because everything as I said earlier was fundamentally broken. Everyone on the board was aware of that the starting position was everything didn’t work. And therefore there was no option but total utter transparency because if anyone had brought a presentation saying everything’s fine, they wouldn’t have been believed.
I worry with the benefit of hindsight that because Post Office Ltd didn’t have that same burning bridge, for want of a better phrase, that same transparency didn’t allow information to flow up through that governance system on its own, and that potentially the separation of the two aided and abetted people not getting at that information.
At the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry, former Royal Mail CEO Adam Crozier is being asked about the risk management around the Post Office being able to carry out prosecutions itself.
He was asked by Jason Beer KC:
Can you recall whether the conduct of prosecutions and the possibility of bringing subpostmasters to justice including by imprisoning them and the issues that arise when conducting prosecutions was on the Royal Mail holdings risk register?
Crozier replied: “I don’t believe so. And I don’t believe I recall seeing it on the Post Office register.”
He was then asked if that was a failing, and Crozier said “With the benefit of hindsight? Yes.”
Adam Crozier has said at the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry that the corporate structure of Royal Mail and Post Office was set up as it was because Royal Mail was expected to develop into a successful commercial venture operating in an opened deregulated market, and that the Post Office was required to “a sustainable public service.”
Adam Crozier is being asked about the corporate structure of the Royal Mail and the Post Office, which these week has clearly established was very convuluted.
While that is happening, PA Media have produced a fuller transcript of the exchange where Alan Cook was accused of a “straight out lie” earlier.
In his questions to Alan Cook, Sam Stein KC, on behalf of a number of subpostmasters, asked: “In your statement, you say this, ‘to the best of my knowledge the Risk and Compliance Committee was not given any information or reporting, nor did I have any oversight of the prosecution of subpostmasters. As a result I did not take any steps … to ensure the Post Office was acting in compliance with its legal obligations. In relation to those prosecutions and civil proceedings against subpostmasters, I was not aware they were taking place.’
“It’s just a straight out lie, isn’t it Mr Cook?”
The former Post Office managing director said: “The point I was trying to make was about the initiation of prosecutions – I have repeatedly acknowledged that there were cases under investigation, and that I was aware there were cases under investigation.”
Stein continued: “Well first of all you do agree you were aware they were taking place and secondly, in your statement, you’re pretending that you weren’t aware to avoid the implication which you needed oversight of the things.
“Just simply not true, is it Mr Cook?” The witness replied: “That was not my intention.”
Stein continued: “Then why did you write that in your statement, Mr Cook?”
Cook said: “Well I believed it at the time, certainly.”
Jason Beer KC is now going to question Adam Crozier at the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry. Crozier headed Royal Mail when it owned the Post Office between 2003 and 2010. You can watch it here …
The Post Office Horizon IT inquiry is taking a ten minute break to switch witnesses, who I am expecting to be Adam Crozier. I am also going to take a quick break until they resume.
Wyn Williams is saying that under Alan Cook’s watch in 2006 that the Post Office spent £300,000 trying to recover about £25,000 from Lee Castleton. Williams is trying to get Cook to explain where that money came from to pursue the case, and why Cook claimed not to have heard of Castleton.
“They did not come to me for approval,” said Cook. Cook says it would have been delegated.
Williams asks “there would have been a person within the Post Office organisation who would have had authority to sign off spending the money without taking it either to you or to the board.”
Cook says yes, and suggests it would have been Paula Vennels.